According to multiple reports, Alabama outside linebackers coach Sal Sunseri will be in Knoxville today as a candidate to fill Tennessee's defensive coordinator vacancy. VolQuest says that Sunseri "has emerged" as the Vols' top target, and if Sunseri's in town to talk, he's at least interested despite the fact that he has a son who plays for the team he'd be leaving.
If all of that is true, it would explain the delay. I'm told that Randy Shannon was never a viable option. Kevin Steele and Ron Zook were both in play, but Sunseri is apparently who Tennessee really wants, and you can't really have serious in-depth conversations with him while he's preparing for the national championship. At least not publicly.
So who is this guy? The Alabama media guide, of course, says he's All That, including the kitchen sink and the bag of chips, and that he's fat- and gluten-free to boot. The puffery-free version: Sunseri walked-on at Pitt in 1978 and became a team captain and consensus All-American linebacker. His teams were 33-3, and he has a list of Playing Days Accolades that you'd expect from such an All-American with three losses.
Sunseri coached the defensive line and linebackers at Pitt in 1985 and was named assistant head coach in 1992. From there, he started climbing the zig zag coaching career ladder that the successful ones like so much, stepping early on Iowa Wesleyan and Illinois State and Louisville and Alabama A&M (as defensive coordinator and linebackers coach at the latter ladder). He then went to LSU to work with Nick Saban in 2000 and then to Michigan State in 2001 before heading off to the NFL's Carolina Panthers.
He began his time with Carolina as a defensive assistant in 2002 and took over as defensive line coach in 2003. There, he coached Pro Bowlers Julius Peppers, Mike Rucker, and Kris Jenkins, and had at least one Pro Bowl DL in five of six seasons.
Sunseri joined the Alabama staff three years ago and got a national championship ring his first season due largely to one of those excellent defenses Nick Saban likes to use. He now coaches the linebackers, is the team's "assistant head coach for defense," and was last seen dancing in his living room wearing nothing but his Official National Championship Locker Room Hat. I'm guessing at that last part, but it's what I'd do. You saw what 'Bama's defense did this season.
The question of whether the coach makes the players or the players make the coach is a particularly appealing false dilemma right now. Have Sunseri's teams been good because he's been there, or has he just been in the right place at the right time? I don't know. But I do know this. Folks tend to favor their own, and the guys making this decision -- Dooley and Hart -- are forever stained crimson and they think it's a good thing. And if we're being honest, it probably is. Hey, if we can repackage the same recent success in orange, we'd take that, right?
I'd say this is probably going to happen. We are too close to National Signing Day and too far from the resignation of Justin Wilcox and Peter Sirmon to make waiting any longer a viable option. Tennessee is expecting 8-10 official visitors (plus some unofficials) this weekend, and you'd think that having a coordinator hired would be a check mark on the right side of the ledger for those guys.
So what do y'all think? Would Sunseri be the best possible hire under the circumstances?
0 recs | 226 comments
Crimson, for coaches
is just another shade or orange?
falconnuke - January 11, 2012
"best possible hire under the circumstances?"
He seems to fit most people’s current needs of “just hire someone, damn it!”
That’s an impressive resume. Impressive enough, in fact, that it makes me wonder why he’s not currently higher in the food chain than outside linebackers coach. Is it just because he hasn’t stayed in one place long enough?
birdjam - January 11, 2012
This is my question
OLB’s coach?? he coaches two players plus reserves? I prefer someone with Coordinator experience! Again he has been coaching since 1985 and yet Kirby Smart is the DC? I am trying to see the gold lining here but I am still not sure how much input any Defense coach has in Nick Saban’s team?? Are they just reiterating what Saban has said And finally if he is all that and a bag of chips why has someone else not offered him before now?
docrok - January 11, 2012
I'm gonna trust our AD, which came from 'bama and probably knows this guy well
And Dooley was on the staff with him at LSU in 2000. Both those guys know what Sunseri can bring to the table, and they like it if he’s their “first choice.”
And I know he only coaches “two guys,” but those two guys are phenomenal
VolsnCards5 - January 11, 2012 via mobile
I'm not Arguing with that
I am simply saying that gameplanning an entire Defense is much different than a one group of players. And yes I am going to trust Dooley’s opinion on HIS hire. I just fear that Dooley is more worried about the “wow” factor that everyone has been crying about on the radio and I just don’t think that should be important. My question is whether Sunseri is Dooley going for option B because he thinks this will appease fans because AL just won their 2nd Nat Title under Saban, and he was there for both.
docrok - January 11, 2012
I think Dooley's smart enough to know...
… that winning games will save his job and wow factor won’t, and I trust that he is making this hire to win football games.
birdjam - January 11, 2012
I hope so
docrok - January 11, 2012
I think he did DC at some of those smaller schools maybe?
cerebralfish - January 11, 2012
He's been around long enough that that shouldn't be a problem
Also CLT has tutored under some outstanding coordinators so he should be able to provide quality input to that as well.
I think the key will be calling the game and anticipating and countering offensive strategies in the heat of battle. But a lot of studly ‘Joes’ making plays helps cover up play calling issues.
phil g - January 11, 2012
What Dooley and Hart on the same page? Where's the drama in that?
We need a candidate that the rumor mongerers can jin up visions of huge schisms between our HC and AD and/or HC and assistants.
This logical process sequence just won’t do.
phil g - January 11, 2012
if you look.......
…..at his entire body of work, including the pros, he has done more than coach 2 players and reserves. As far as other teams he may very well have been offered other jobs that we just don’t know about yet but regardless of that fact he seems to have enough diversified experiance to have earned a shot at DC. If this is the hire nobody should be surprised that he came from "bama……
Marooned Pirate - January 11, 2012
this worries me as well
25 years in coaching and no DC position at a D-I or NFL level?
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
Apparently
I have been corrected and according to Volquest he has some Coordinator experience previously but that was a long time ago so this concerns me? But again I am not the coach and do not know what they know. And the reality is Dooley has made really good hires up to this point so I guess I should trust that if is his choice than he must be the right guy…. But that is definitely what jumped out at me
docrok - January 11, 2012
"the reality is Dooley has made really good hires up to this point"
Is that really the reality?
birdjam - January 11, 2012
Meh
I think I have reached my saturation point with DC candidates. Whoever they hire will suddenly be the perfect guy they wanted all along. The sun will rise and fall. Bottom line, as we all know, is that the product on the field will determine Dooley’s fate. The tea leaves of this hire (from the length of time it took for whatever reasons, to who turned us down which we may never know, to who actually gets hired when all is said and done,) do not appear good for us right now, but obviously none of us will know until next year.
birdjam - January 11, 2012
well yeah, we'll see on the field
but all we have is discussion and speculation until then. and this one doesn’t give me warm fuzzies
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
Well he's a great recruiter
and I think it more important at this stage to get as many ‘Joes’ as possible if you can’t have the best ’X’s and O’s’.
phil g - January 11, 2012
I agree 100%....
with a resume like that it really surprises that he is only the OLB coach?? Who knows he may be the sole reason his teams have been dominate and if we do get him than I hope so….but at this point and I do not mean to sound like a hater but it seems like the only “Crimson” we get are the scraps. This guy is surely not the “Splash” we or at least I hoped for but he may be our best bet??
bullrider73 - January 11, 2012
Apparently Bill Cowert wasn't quite ready to leave the broadcast booth.
phil g - January 11, 2012
I'm at the point now where...
I just don’t care who they hire, just get somebody. He’s either going to be really good or he’s going to suck! If it’s the former then great. But if it’s the latter, well, it won’t be anything different than what we’ve had to endure for the last 4+ years. And if it’s the latter then it’s not going to matter anyway as we will be getting a whole new staff next year. Then maybe UT will throw some money around and get a really good coaching staff. I’m sure we’ll know all the answers by the end of October.
Displaced_Vol_Fan - January 11, 2012 via mobile
Beginning of October
We will have our answer by the end of the first weekend in Oct when we will have already played FL and GA!
docrok - January 11, 2012
Make this guy a sound offer
Sounds like he can at least keep our heads above water.
livininthepast - January 11, 2012
I don't mind this hire at all
He’s been learning from the best for a few years now, so that can’t hurt. I don’t know enough about him (or enough about football to be honest) to know if this is a great hire or not. Like some have already said, we will know next year when they play.
Does anyone know how good a recruiter he is supposed to be? I hope this hire can excite some of the top defensive recruits we have right now.
My other concern is I hope this doesn’t make Lance Thompson mad enough to start looking for another job rowdier next year. That would hurt us real bad IMO. I don’t know for sure how badly Lance has wanted the DC position. Everyone seems to say he wanted it really bad and will be offended not to get it. Has that been confirmed anywhere or is that just speculation?
PrideofTheSouthlandFan - January 11, 2012 via mobile
he's the reigning recruiter of the year
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
and that's exactly what this staff needs...more elite recruiters
having said that…it is critical to make CLT happy and on board through this.
phil g - January 11, 2012
Just hire somebody
I am about tired of all of the backstreet rumors and putting off the hiring of a DC. Someone needs to be named before more recruits back out. We are now weeks away from national signing day and have slipped from 12th to 21st in recruiting since Wilcox announced his departure.
tennesseevolsman - January 11, 2012
have two major thoughts about this possibility:
1. This is a highly underwhelming hire if we’re planning on him being around for five years. There were plenty of great defensive minds out there (Randy Shannon, Vic Koenning, Brian Vangorder come to mind) and we got someone who has never been a DC at a high level before. May turn out well, but we’re Tennessee. There’s no reason for us to have to take fliers on up and comers. Also, as I mentioned earlier, it worries me that he’s been coaching so long and not gotten a high level DC spot. Does that say something about him?
2. This is a great hire for the “2012 sucks again” scenario. He’s known as an ace recruiter and he’s coming off a national championship, so there’s a good chance big defensive names will look at us before signing day. And if the whole staff gets canned in October, getting great talent in place for the next coach is priority #1.
What baffles me is that Dooley is the one who’s hiring him, and Dooley obviously prefers scenario #1 over #2.
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
"but we’re Tennessee"
I don’t think this phrase means what it used to. We have an inflated sense of self that may be completely justified by our past success but it just isn’t realistic anymore. We hired Derek Dooley because Air Force’s coach turned us down. Because Duke’s coach (whose dream job was here, mind you) turned us down. We lost to Kentucky last year.
I hate it, but it’s true.
birdjam - January 11, 2012
At worst it is still Tenne$$ee.
The product on the field has been bad, but the money and facilities are here. I mean a ton of money. Top 10 type money nationally as a program. This is Hart playing his cards for the next staff which will be his staff. I see Dooley and staff being gone sometime in 2013 or 2014 at which point TN will flex their money muscles and Hart will bring in a big name coach and staff. Coaches didnt jump after the job post kiffin because if the timing and circumstances. The cupboard was bare. I dont think TN will have any trouble under normal circumstances pulling off a dream team staff. I mean just before Dooley was Kiffin and his boys who imo were extremely good.
cerebralfish - January 11, 2012
On what basis do you make the claim that we will "flex our money muscles"?
Is it because Dave Hart is here now? When has Tennessee ever done that? Yes, we have an enormous athletic budget, but when have we gone out and used it to attract coaches?
We went cheap with the Mike Hamilton hire, and that has put us in the position we are in right now as an athletics program. We’ve historically gone cheap with hires. Yes, we have nice facilities and a big budget. And those are definitely selling points, as is our membership in the best conference in America.
But this idea that people will climb over each other to come here because “we’re Tennessee” simply isn’t true anymore. I think a lot of the angst of our fans when we take these gambles on hiring coaches comes from their perception that we are above that, that we’re better than that. That’s unfortunately simply not the case anymore.
birdjam - January 11, 2012
because we've had too many failures in a row
and without busting out the cash for a top-notch hire, we run the risk of apathy from major donors and fans. We need to make a big money hire next time to keep the cash flowing. And that’s why I expect to make a big-money hire.
And recall that we didn’t go that cheap on Kiffin—we just tried that ridiculously highly paid staff bit
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
I'm in agreeance with you that the "we're tennessee" mentality is
overused and especially during these rough years has become less and less applicable. This has become a what have you done for me lately society in which recruits dont care about the history of programs anymore as much as their current status as far as record goes, their distance from home, the % of hot girls and the location(whether its a “cool” town or not). It’s getting harder and harder for Notre Dame for this reason and yet the fans dont seem to realize. They still say “we’re Notre Dame”.
At the same time, I think it might be unrealistic to think because TN doesnt have a history of spending the dough to get a coach that they wont ever do it. How much did they spend on Kiffin and staff? I really dont know, but surely it wasnt cheap. They tried using big money to attract a couple DC’s imo. It’s just a tough situation to come into for a coach right now under Dooley. I really believe that the next HC/staff overhaul will show that TN will spend the money. I think the next HC and a new staff could turn this thing around very quickly. I think Kiffin was well on his way in year 1 imo.
cerebralfish - January 11, 2012
The flaw with your thinking.....
Is that not only does ND spend a great deal of money on its program it also has consistently gotten top recruiting classes and big name players to its program. The problem is they have vastly underperformed and much of the talent they go after has been west coast and central talent that doesn’t compare with the SEC. Check the recruiting budgets and the money they paid Charlie Weiss and what they are paying their coach now. Yes they are still ND and people still want to go there. Problem is the coaching and player evaluation just isnt as good as it is in the SEC.
So yes We are Tennessee still has value. Does Dooley’s situation play a factor, of course it does but aside from Jimmy Hyams claiming TN offered Chavis a mil to coach here as DC we have nothing that shows TN offered anyone else. And a mil for a DC sure looks like breaking the bank to me! And I am not sad that Chavis is staying where he is. I like Chavis, and I think he did great things at TN when he had his chance but that ship has sailed.
docrok - January 11, 2012
How it works today
The hiring process, as well documented by Clay Travis in “On Rocky Top”, gives everyone plausible deniability now. Intermediaries speak in hypotheticals so that once a hire is made, we can say without lying that the guy we hired is the first guy we offered the job to and nobody turned us down. But we all know that’s not the whole truth.
birdjam - January 11, 2012
I dont think conference affiliation has much to do with ones ability to evaluate talent.
The top tier SEC teams(UF, LSU, Bama) get better players from the jump than ND. My point is that it is getting harder to use tradition to pull kids nowadays. ND does not recruit with the elite teams in the country anymore. If you just look at rankings they can be misleading unless you break down the classes. Since 2007 they have routinely saturated their team with 3* talent which has lead to the lack of depth of talent to compete at the highest level. Notre Dame fields players now that wouldnt have seen the field when they “were notre dame”. They still pull great players but are forced to mix in tons of mediocre talent this day in age. Miami, under Shannon used this same strategy to get high recruiting rankings and now they are suffering dearly.
cerebralfish - January 11, 2012
agree
but Notre Dame has lots of problems that Tennessee doesn’t: unusually high academic standards, a cold-weather campus, and a dearth of talent within a 4-5 hour drive
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
True.
TN has more many more advantages as far as recruiting goes in this day and age which is why it can be turned around as fast as any program out there. I just think the “were tennessee” selling point docrok referred to doesnt really resonate with today’s young people. What will resonate is hiring a big name HC/staff, the facilities they already have, and the location(close to home for elite recruits). The situation at Tennessee is very bad, but the length of time it will stay that way is exaggerated quite a bit by some. Theyre one big hire away from making an almost immediate turnaround. Immediate being instant, year 1 results in recruiting and enthusiasm nationally and year 2 on field impact. TN remains a 2-3 year fun and exciting rebuild away from a contender.
cerebralfish - January 11, 2012
oh, I'm not talking about it resonating with young people
I’m talking about it resonating with the guys in charge and the coaches they’re trying to hire. We should get the candidate we want because we’re Tennessee and we don’t take no for an answer.
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
In that case
Dooley is the problem without question.
cerebralfish - January 11, 2012
if that's the case
then get rid of him. hopefully our AD has a pretty good idea of whether or not that’s the case
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
If Dooley is not the answer
On the field he has recruited as well as most any other coach. Since you seem to like to break down the recruiting rankings you will see there is only small differences in the classes TN is bringing in compared to the other higher ranked schools. TN has missed in 2 areas in my opinion and that is RB and DT. And not really missed in DT as Couch appears to be an excellent player, however we need at least 3 or 4 more. But nevertheless TN is still landing these recruits. I think a RB will come in this class with the addition of Jay Graham.
docrok - January 11, 2012
And that is the least and most important thing we needed Dooley to do
So worst case he leaves a roster and program in much better shape then he took over.
phil g - January 11, 2012
Yeah.
Even if we fire him after this season, it’s not like he’s leaving behind a bare cupboard, like the one he walked into.
TennesseeTyrants - January 11, 2012
I do break down the Recruiting Rankings
Because even LSU and AL mix in alot of 3* players with a handful of 4 and 5* players. Look at LSU and AL rankings for this year and last year and you will see there is not much difference in the star power. I am referring to the intangibles, Size Speed and Athleticism, which is well documented as better in the SEC. We don’t just get size or speed the SEC gets both. And according to these recruiting sites 3* players are considered div 1 athletes and possible NFL talent just need player development to grow into this.
docrok - January 11, 2012
agreed
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
we're not good right now
but we’re no worse than Alabama was 5-6 years ago. Remember how they took a flier on that Dolphins washout? We put together the money and have an AD that people will actually work for, and we won’t have to take fliers on unproven candidates
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
But we've traditionally taken flyers on up and comers
That has been the tradition of this program. Tell me when, other than the all star disaster that the short lived Kiffin regime was, when we’ve hired the best HC or coordinator off the street other than bringing Johnny home.
Fulmer was promoted to OC then to HC
Cutcliff got his big break at UT, first OC job
Chavis got his big break at UT. first DC job
Kiffin was a reach at HC based on record
Monte Kiffin is about the only bonified big time name that we paid big time bucks for as a DC.
Chaney might be lumped into this but other than Purdue he’s never coordinated another D1 program.
phil g - January 11, 2012
The theme of all our successful coaches in that list
(including Johnny) is they were Tennessee people.
For some reason, our program stopped producing bright young coaches somewhere along the way.
birdjam - January 11, 2012
PEYTONMANNINGPEYTONMANNINGPEYTONMANNINGPEYTONMANNINGPEYTONMANNING
He can walk in as a head coach on day one and have it turned around in no time. It has to be true; I heard multiple callers on our beloved local radio say that.
David Hooper - January 11, 2012
I think Volnation would agree...so it must be true
phil g - January 11, 2012
Whats with Volnation anyway?
I’m new to Tennessee blog sites, but I must say I’ve been hard pressed to find any decent or dependable info there. Is it just a bunch of fans with no inside info?
cerebralfish - January 11, 2012
Yes
birdjam - January 11, 2012
With the exception of about 3-4 posters...rest are Internet bad asses posting from their parent's basement or their dorm room.
phil g - January 11, 2012
#teammom'sbasement
I’ll take out the trash in a minute, mom. Jeez.
Chris Pendley - January 11, 2012
That explains it then.
I stopped going there almost instantly.
cerebralfish - January 11, 2012
Is the CLAAAAAAAAAAAY implied?
Chris Pendley - January 11, 2012
with the exception of
Randy Sanders.
Cutcliff is not arguably a UT guy as he’s from Alabama but I guess he became one through his long tenure on UT’s staff.
A major difference between Johnny and Phil was the incredible number of future successful assistants and grad assistants that spent a year or few on Johnny’s staff. The list of these successful college and pro coaches is just amazing. That list that worked for Phil and became successful somewhere else is pretty darn short.
phil g - January 11, 2012
Cut and Chavis
Is that it?
Granted, they were pretty damned good in their heydays.
birdjam - January 11, 2012
...and Fulmer
Other than all of the assistants that worked under Johnny that went on to be successful other places, that’s about it.
phil g - January 11, 2012
I was talking about the assistants under Fulmer
birdjam - January 11, 2012
Oh right
phil g - January 11, 2012
Doug Marrone is the only other one I can think of
I really wanted him back as OC after Sanders was fired but we got the Clawfense instead…yay
phil g - January 11, 2012
Hopefully we can add Jay Graham to the successful UT guys that came home
phil g - January 11, 2012
Good point
I guess the jury is still out on him and Tee. Both appear to have bright futures though.
birdjam - January 11, 2012
But Tee never coached at UT so doesn't really apply to this example
phil g - January 11, 2012
No, technically you're right
But I am using a looser definition of being produced by the system, one that includes people like Cutcliffe and also former players. I think both can be considered parts of a “coaching tree.”
birdjam - January 11, 2012
gotcha
phil g - January 11, 2012
That often seems to be the case with coaching trees.
That those who spawn off the main trunk of a tree (e.g. Fulmer from Majors) don’t create their own tree, even of those branches are themselves very successful.
Now that I think about it, who did Belichik come from? His assistants haven’t had a lot of luck after leaving him. Did Belichik’s mentor have a huge tree? (I honestly can’t remember who that was.)
And while we’re at it, how have Saban assistants done once they’re on their own?
David Hooper - January 11, 2012
Belichik was from the Parcels tree.
TennesseeTyrants - January 11, 2012
Thanks.
David Hooper - January 11, 2012
Yes and I think Belichik is about the only successful one so far off the tree
There’s others that have had their chance, but not really succeeded.
phil g - January 11, 2012
This could be fun.
What was the Walsh tree? I just remember Shanahan, but I’m a bit memory-biased in that.
David Hooper - January 11, 2012
Tim Layden's book "Blood, Sweat, and Chalk"
had a great exploration of coaching trees and the inside of the dust jacket was a diagram of the most notable ones. Very interesting to look at. Great book too.
http://www.amazon.com/Blood-Sweat-Chalk-Ultimate-Football/dp/1603200614
birdjam - January 11, 2012
Oh my that's a long one, I'll start it
Wyche
Holmgren
Reid
Siefert
Mariucci
Erickson
phil g - January 11, 2012
Walsh tree:
Source: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2006-03-15-coaching-trees_x.htm
birdjam - January 11, 2012
Doh...forgot Shanahan and Green
phil g - January 11, 2012
That's interesting.
But not many people consider a guy like Jeff Fisher to be from the Walsh Tree. He is very well known as a member of the Buddy Ryan tree.
He came up through the defensive coaching ranks under Buddy Ryan, and even ran the 46 defense as his base defense for a while with the Houston/Tennessee Oilers.
TennesseeTyrants - January 11, 2012
I agree...a couple of those seem to be a reach or so indirect as not to really apply
phil g - January 11, 2012
This page agrees on Fisher
And also seems to be a pretty good source for some others:
http://www.sports-central.org/sports/2008/02/22/the_nfl_coaching_tree_2008_pt_1.php
birdjam - January 11, 2012
Schwartz is going to be a good Head Coach, I think.
Gregg Williams got a shot as a head coach that wasn’t too successful, but he’s still a great DC.
Mike Munchak has things headed in the right direction. The Fisher tree is expanding.
TennesseeTyrants - January 11, 2012
haha
ya Saban has had a horrible career after leaving Belichik, and theres that Penn State job that just got filled by one of his….and as far as how Saban’s assistants have done?? Will Muschamp & Jimbo Fisher have had as much success as u can expect from someone in a new position….believe me, FSU and Fl will be back…
sprizzle2182 - January 11, 2012
Ah forgot about that
Did he coach long enough under Belichik to really be from the tree? That’s a question for some of the names associated with Walsh as well.
But assuming he’s from the Belichik tree than yes very successful branch.
phil g - January 11, 2012
Muschamp and Fisher
I am sorry but Muschamp did not exactly walk into a mess that needed alot repair. FL was coming off the number 1 recruiting class in the country Meyer’s last year recruiting at FL and top 10 classes every year. So not sure how he could not be expected to finish better than 7-6 one game better than Dooley’s 2 years here in which he walked into a program in need of ALOT of recruiting. Additionally Fisher has been at FL for awhile as the Coach in waiting so he has his players there and that team greatly under achieved so the jury is still out on Saban’s assistants. That includes Dooley.
docrok - January 11, 2012
"Greatly underachieved" is an overexaggerating Fisher's failure.
10 wins his first year with a completely new staff, new personnel and a defense full of underclassmen learning a new system(base man to base zone). That was while winning the state championship in blowout fashion and beating the SEC east champs in a bowl.
The recruiting class went from 38th to 6th in the first week he took over as HC. After his first season he landed the #1 class and followed with a disappointing 9-4 season with a list of injuries even worse than TN’s going into 2 of those losses(QB, 4 of the top 5 WR, multiple OL, CB and elite returner)but still won the state and the bowl(beat ND with as many as 7 true freshman on the field on offense).
Now he goes into his 3rd year with another top 3 class and a top 10 defense that returns 9. He did fall short regardless of the injuries this year especially vs UVA but has done a very solid job thusfar imo. 2012 has always been the target year for FSU fans even before 2011 started.
cerebralfish - January 11, 2012
Well As FSU is an ACC Team
And not an SEC team I have not followed them as closely as you apparently have, which leads me to believe you to be a FSU or FL fan, however I know that they came into the season around #4 and after the loss to OK seemed to have trouble. I do not claim to have personal knowledge of their team however this year I do recall ESPN claiming they returned a far more experience Defense. Again just what I remember from the programs on ESPN. As for 2012 Good luck in the ACC and hope they meet the SEC Champ in the BCS game. However all year I heard how FSU underachieved and the only injury that was brought up was that of the QB
docrok - January 11, 2012
I'm an FSU fan
and everything I said was accurate. They were overhyped as a possible title contender this year by the national media. They lost most of the before mentioned players in the OU game(Haulstead, Shaw, Greene, Reed at WR, EJ at QB, Greg Reid at CB, and Datko/Spurlock/Stork on the OL. They returned a defense full of underclassmen in year 2 of a system and played at an elite level. They were forced to start 4 true freshman on the OL including a 17 yr old with 11 starts combined(3 in their 1st start)vs ND. It was truly horrendous injury luck this year and still pulled out 9 wins. I follow Tennessee too because I live in johnson city and my in-laws are huge UT fans/boosters.
cerebralfish - January 11, 2012
I'd hope to meet the SEC champs.
Heck, I hope to join the SEC. The ACC sucks outside VT, Clemson, FSU, and Miami(who is down). We’ve had relatively good luck vs SEC going 3-0 in the last 2 years vs SEC and even getting a W a few years ago vs Bama in Saban’s first year. No doubt Bama and LSU wouldve handled us this year even if we were healthy.
cerebralfish - January 11, 2012
In aggregate.
There have been so many hired from under Belichik that some will have found success. But Saban’s case is as much Saban as Belichik. And that’s kinda my underlying point.
David Hooper - January 11, 2012
Trees
Coaching trees to me simply are a place for a coach to learn. Just like any other job. A great journalist that teaches another journalist that goes on to become successful says that the teacher was an excellent teacher but disregards the student must be a great student. The same great journalist could teach yet another student that isnt a great student and then when that student fails its a reflection on the teacher again. And while yes the teacher bears some responsibility the student bears more responsibility in his own maturation. So in saying that being from the Walsh tree, the Belichick tree, and further the Saban tree simply exposes the student, (the new coaches) to the teacher. It then becomes the responsibility of the student to learn and find a way to implement the principles into his own successful process. And this is all just another way of saying they were exposed to some of the best coaches out there its on them whether they can find a way to be successful.
docrok - January 11, 2012
I tend to agree.
David Hooper - January 11, 2012
Saban coached under Belichik
If memory serves me correct I think Saban did a stint under Bill Belichik I think at Cleveland
docrok - January 11, 2012
You need some tenure to produce bright, young coaches.
Fulmer produced his share, but we got fed up with Fulmer, blew the whole thing up, and started over.
Dooley hasn’t had time to produce any “up and coming” assistants yet, and the ones that are up and coming are leaving for sub-lateral jobs…
TennesseeTyrants - January 11, 2012
Really? name some
I don’t consider a 16 year tenure as getting fed up and blowing up without giving him a chance. Sorry Fulmer had more chances than he earned.
phil g - January 11, 2012
I'll help
Bright young coaches that worked for Fulmer and went on to success:
Doug Marrone
Chavis at LSU
Can’t really think of anyone else.
phil g - January 11, 2012
Cutcliff at Ole Miss and Duke
phil g - January 11, 2012
I'm not saying Fulmer didn't get a fair chance.
But everyone was fed up. And we did blow the whole thing up.
TennesseeTyrants - January 11, 2012
True and arguably justifiable
phil g - January 11, 2012
My point was
16 years is sufficient tenure to produce a legacy of successful assistants. Johnny’s list is very long after 16 years.
I think it is a not so positive reflection on Fulmer’s management ability.
phil g - January 11, 2012
That's fine.
I didn’t intend to comment on Fulmer’s worth. I thought your question was “why aren’t we producing bright young coaches right now?” and the answer is, because Dooley has only been here for two years. You need to be a tenured, successful head coach to form a “tree.”
Even after Fulmer was fired, we almost hired a “Tennessee guy,” Cutcliffe, to fill his spot, but that didn’t work out, so we blew it all up and started over for the first time in a very long time.
TennesseeTyrants - January 11, 2012
Oh...classic example of talking past each other
I was refering to Fulmer versus Johnny legacy legacy, not to Dooley’s. I agree Dooley is a work in progress.
phil g - January 11, 2012
Nobody expects Dooley to have produced anyone yet
When we’re discussing the vacuum of coaching talent, we’re talking about Majors’ assistants who seemingly all went on to bigger and better things versus Fulmer’s assistants, of which we can pretty much name only a few.
birdjam - January 11, 2012
That's the track I was on
phil g - January 11, 2012
Please excuse my lack of reading comprehension.
TennesseeTyrants - January 11, 2012
more for the list
Randy Sanders…we know that story and how it turned out
Dave Clausen was a reach in that he’d never coordinated at the D1 level and not sure he ever worked on a D1 level staff
We let one of the best o-line coaches in the country go in Dave Barry and didn’t retain talented Doug Marrone and replaced them with wash outs and never was’.
So what your really suggesting by ’we’re Tennessee’ is to start a new tradition…after Dooley’s tenure is over.
phil g - January 11, 2012
All the names on your list might not have been big money hires,
but when I look at them they were all almost perfect at the time of hiring. Fulmer was a great HC hire. Cutcliffe was a great OC hire. Chavis was a great DC hire and Kiffin as it turned out was very good in year 1 imo. Fulmer ran his course but also won tons of games and brought a title to UT. Cutcliffe is a top tier QB coach and offensive mind. Chavis is also a very good DC. I would say the talent evaluation as far as coaching hires goes has been top notch before Dooley. I dont think in the past UT had to hire off the street to find the best guy as time eventually proved the best guys just happened to be in house.
cerebralfish - January 11, 2012
True, but my response was to the suggestion that 'we're Tennessee' and don't settle for up and comers
That legacy broke down with the Sanders promotion and most of Fulmer’s hiring from 2000 on were questionable.
phil g - January 11, 2012
I said "take a flier though"
which has the sort of connotation that eliminated in my mind the guys that everybody wants. Like, if we had been able to grab a guy like Chris Petersen at HC, he would’ve been an up and comer, but I wouldn’t consider it taking a flier.
Sunseri isn’t a sought-after DC at all
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
I agree with this.
Hiring up and comers isnt necessarily settling at all. Hiring unknowns is.
cerebralfish - January 11, 2012
Well we've had so little experience with this over the past 30+ years it is hard to say
phil g - January 11, 2012
I'm not completely opposed to this.
There are some red flags, the big one being that he hasn’t been a DC of any significance yet.
I like that he’s an excellent recruiter. I like that his resume is filled with success. There’s also his “assistant head coach” title. What does that mean? What responsibility does it entail? It says to me that he’s probably heavily involved in the defensive gameplanning as opposed to being JUST a position coach, but that’s just my perception.
So, the big question now really is just playcalling, assuming he has had his hand in the gameplanning mix. If he hasn’t been much of a gameplanner, that’s another big leap he’ll have to make.
TennesseeTyrants - January 11, 2012
Also
Can he count to 11?
(Too soon?)
birdjam - January 11, 2012
Charlie Baggett
Wasn’t Charlie Baggett the asst head coach during his tenure at TN???
docrok - January 11, 2012
We've been very pleased with Coach Sal...
…and will be sad to see him go, but, truth be told, we’ll miss him more for his recruiting abilities than anything else. He’s coached up our LBs to do their jobs very well, but so far as defensive gameplanning….nada. Not even close. That’s Saban and Smart. He’s not what you would call a “home run” hire, but he’s solid. You could do worse.
He was a HC at a Div III school for a year or two, and was interim HC at Pitt for 1 game back about 20 yrs ago. Never been a DC at any level above Div I-AA….overwhelmingly, his career has consisted of coaching LBs and the DL. And as far as I’m aware, he’s a dyed-in-the-wool 3-4 guy….don’t know anything about y’all’s defensive schemes or personnel, so I don’t know if that fits or not. So far as the “assistant HC” title goes, we have 3 of those…Sunseri, Jeff Stoudtland (our OL coach) and Burt Burns (our RBs coach), so I don’t know if that’s a superfluous title or if it really carries some weight.
At any rate, Roll Tide Roll, and best of luck to Coach Sal, no matter where he goes.
13 Rings - January 11, 2012
*fartnoise*
I’d rather take Sal “Unknown Quantity” Sunseri than Ron “We Know He Sucks” Zook, or any of a dozen Zook clones.
Caban - January 11, 2012
this is my argument on Sunseri vs Steele
but I’m actually not as convinced that Zook sucks. people point to the failure at Florida, but he managed to get an NFL DC job after that, so someone must’ve seen something
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
Jim Haslett brought him up
after a single year as a DB coach for a Kansas City team where they turned in a below average pass defense. Before this it had been years since he’d even been a defensive position coach.
I think his promotion had more to do with the same things that led Jim Haslett to turn in progressively worse teams as HC of the Saints.
Caban - January 11, 2012
and trust me...
I watched his Florida defenses. They were right up there with Hal Mumme’s Kentucky defenses… luckily the SEC was TERRIBLE at the time. Seriously, Ray Goff’s Georgia teams were the 4th best team after UT/Bama/UF by ten miles.
Caban - January 11, 2012
his defenses at Illinois weren't too bad
given up 30+ four times in the last two years. While coaching Illinois. Offense was the problem this year, at least. Scored 20 or fewer in seven straight games. Never lost a game in which he scored at least 20
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
might've been the DC though
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
can't entirely tell...
but looking through the archives, Vic Koennig did consistently turn in top 20 defenses at Clemson. Appears he got run off with Tommy Bowden after the 2008 season.
Caban - January 11, 2012
I would've loved to get Vic Koenning
if UNC hadn’t grabbed him first
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
/twitch
As much as I love Chaney for what he did at Wyoming, I have the opposite feelings for that guy for what he did at Wyoming. Which has nothing to do with him as a DC.
David Hooper - January 11, 2012
yeah, understandable
but he sure seems like a top-notch DC
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
Just don't let him get anywhere within 50 yards of the offensive playbook.
Hey, if the defensive end stays home, then every single offensive play fails. Let’s run them all season long!
David Hooper - January 11, 2012
My memory apparently isn't perfect...
Auburn and Mississippi State had their moments… but man, his Florida teams were giving up 20+ ppg games despite having 50% of their games against really bad teams
Caban - January 11, 2012
take 92 as an example
(4-7)Kentucky = 19 points
(9-3)#14 Tennessee = 31
(7-5)#24 Mississippi State = 30
(2-9)LSU = 21
(5-5-1)Auburn = 9
(5-6)Louisville = 17
(10-2)#7 Georgia = 24
(7-4)USM = 20
(5-6)South Carolina = 9
(4-7)Vandy = 21
(11-1)FSU = 45
(13-0)Bama = 28
(9-3-1)NCSU = 12
Considering how good Spurrier’s offenses were, folks in Gainesville were screaming for his head after that season but Spur gave him one more season… it didn’t save his job, but he was willing to take a demotion.
Caban - January 11, 2012
not that the ppg was awful
but UF fans saw the writing on the wall, that they’d never compete with UT, Bama, and FSU consistently if they were giving up 30+ points every time they ran into a good offense.
Caban - January 11, 2012
and on a heartwarming sidenote...
just about every conversation we have, as UT fans, about anything before 2008 just serves to remind me of how far we’ve fallen.
Caban - January 11, 2012
Seeing rumblings on Twitter and elsewhere
That Sunseri is all but hired.
Also that Hiestand will be gone to ND and that Biasacca (or whatever the San Diego guy’s name is) will be hired as well.
birdjam - January 11, 2012
Was
Kinda hoping for Buddy Green for DC.
GhostDance - January 11, 2012
He would have been a good candidate
But would have taken a beating in the blovusphere because he came from Navy…Navy??? we’re TENNESSEE
phil g - January 11, 2012
After our previous success in wooing service academy coaches
I’d say it would be a step up.
birdjam - January 11, 2012
also Navy hasn't really had good defenses lately
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
Austin Ward and Gribble seemingly confirm on Hiestand:
Andrew Gribble @Andrew_Gribble 2m
RT @Vols_Beat: According to source, Vols offensive line coach Harry Hiestand appears to be close to a deal for same position at Notre Dame.
birdjam - January 11, 2012
#TeamRunBlocking
Hiestand should get along well with Kelly.
David Hooper - January 11, 2012
I work with a Notre Dame alum who was asking me about him.
He …wasn’t happy.
Chris Pendley - January 11, 2012
Come on down Mitch Browning
An upgrade in my opinion if that were to happen
phil g - January 11, 2012
seconded
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
FWIW (and for some reason)
Gribble just tweeted that there is currently a plane in the air from Tuscaloosa to Knoxville:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N100TW
birdjam - January 11, 2012
/door.jpg
David Hooper - January 11, 2012
Oooh, I haven't seen this version before.
My personal favorite is the person on the stream complaining this is boring.
Chris Pendley - January 11, 2012
The guy aliased as "Doorwatch2009"?
Nice trolling, that.
David Hooper - January 11, 2012
my favorite...
is the Kentucky fan, watching a live stream of a door telling others to GROW UP!
Caban - January 11, 2012
truth
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
How did I miss someone invoking FlightAware?
The offseason, ladies and gentlemen!
Chris Pendley - January 11, 2012
and I reiterate
That UT had the Athletic Department’s plane blocked from FlightAware. Takes so much of the fun away.
We need to keep a Knoxville air traffic controller on retainer here.
Caban - January 11, 2012
Bisacca at least would be a homerun
but I prefer a DC homerun to a ST coordinator homerun
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
I like it.
The rumors are Buddy Green may come to coach safeties. Sunseri is a tenacious recruiter and could bring the Bama blueprint for stopping SEC offenses.
Love it.
Who cares about getting guys from Bama? They’re winning. If they’re leaving there for UT, it’s not like some big conspiracy. It’s a business.
Brad Shepard - January 11, 2012
I haven't really read all the comments...
but are there seriously folks worried about a Crimson Manchurian Candidate?
Caban - January 11, 2012
That was Hart
This is all about consolidating the victory.
phil g - January 11, 2012
Well, we didn't have a lot of success with all those Florida guys we were bringing in...
;-)
David Hooper - January 11, 2012
Other than Dickey I would agree
phil g - January 11, 2012
I am,
not publicly, however (up until now, I reckon). I just grew up with hatred for only one thing, and that was the University of Alabama. Sorry. And yes, I know Cut was from there, and rah rah rah, and yes, I will support whomever we bring from there…I’m just saying. It’s just weird.
GhostDance - January 11, 2012
Welcome to the brave new world.
We apparently ran out of viable guys with Tennessee connections and so are doing the next best thing…raiding our successful and fierce competitor.
phil g - January 11, 2012
We would get along perfectly, GhostDance
It’s hard to stomach, but once they jump over, they are Vols.
Brad Shepard - January 11, 2012
Oh, I agree...
Hate Alabama every day(and twice on Saturday).
But anyone who was able to get far enough to get a major coaching job is going to be enough of a businessman to worry about the quality of their work and turn off the part of their brain that demands the destruction of all their rivals.
Besides, how fun would it be to actually take a rivals’ folk hero and make them a loyal Vol?
Caban - January 11, 2012
Agreed.
GhostDance - January 11, 2012
this
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
This is the rumor I heard from Volquest
If this is true I like it! Navy had a pretty fair Defense and their safety led the nation in fumble recoveries. Could be luck or could be good coaching
docrok - January 11, 2012
"Who cares about getting guys from Bama?"
Things you say in a foxhole
Will Shelton - January 11, 2012
tenacious recruiter, good
lack of DC experience, not so good. jury is definitely still out on Sunseri, although getting talent is always a good thing
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
The jury is still out?
On the defensive coordinator we have not yet officially hired who has never defensive coordinated at this level before? You don’t say.
birdjam - January 11, 2012
well yeah
but it was in response to “will bring the Bama blueprint for stopping SEC offenses. Love it”
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
This is not good
I’ve been a Dooley supporter since day 1, and am always a “cup half full” kind of guy, but I don’t see how this is anything but a below average hire.
So we need to fill a DC position and we go out and get someone with no major DC experience? Steele would have been a much better choice.
He’s a great recruiter? It’s easy to recruit to Bama when your first year there you win a National Championship.
This better be a result of Dooley’s uncertain future scaring away real quality candidates rather than Hart’s hiring philosophy. Because if this is Hart’s doing, and UT is going to continue to look for the diamond in the rough, up-and-comer hire then it’s going to be hard to be excited about the future. Other teams are paying for success and we’re trying to save some pennies.
The Life & Opinions of Boone, Gentleman - January 11, 2012
Hey it's also easy to recruit to Tennessee...we're TENNESSEE
phil g - January 11, 2012
Hart
Paying 4 mil a year for Saban does not give me the opinion that he is pinch and save kind of guy, and according to the Bama fans when he was hired that he was instrumental in bringing in Saban. Don’t know this personally only what was said.
docrok - January 11, 2012
Hard to tell
Hart joined Alabama 1.5 years after Saban was hired. Maybe he helped behind the scenes, but it wasn’t his decision to make as far as the money was concerned. Who knows? Maybe Hart is willing to pay the big $$ but no one big wanted to come to UT because Dooley is on the hot seat.
Another issue I have is that most TN fans are just happy to have someone at DC. The search is frustrating but we need to hire the right guy rather than the fast guy. Apathy has set it for too many. We should demand better.
The Life & Opinions of Boone, Gentleman - January 11, 2012
Also not all Hart's call
Big deals still have to be approved by the big money behind the program.
phil g - January 11, 2012
Mal Moore...
…was the rainmaker and the closer on bringing Saban to Bama.
13 Rings - January 11, 2012
Can we just hire a defensive coordinator, already?
I’m sick of waiting. I’m on campus right now, can I do it? I’d only require a small raise over my current salary, and I consider myself a pretty good recruiter.
TennesseeTyrants - January 11, 2012
I know this has likely been kicked around a ton,
but is Coach Dooley not giving Thompson a shot at DC? Does he not want it? Will be get pissed about not being offered?
GhostDance - January 11, 2012
*be, not "he"
GhostDance - January 11, 2012
Anybody else a touch concerned that he may want to install a 3-4?
Generally speaking, I like the hire, and Bama’s defense is pretty dang multiple so I’d imagine he’d be comfortable using what we’ve got until we can build up a strong LB and DL corp, but still- switching over from the 4-2-5 thing Wilcox seemed to want to move into seems like it may be a big jump for players.
_trey_ - January 11, 2012
(Particularly for the paper-thin LB group)
_trey_ - January 11, 2012
I don't know
But Curt Maggitt was born to play the weakside OLB position in a pro-style 3-4. But I’m like you, I worry about depth…not just quality depth, but depth. <—Period
GhostDance - January 11, 2012
I could see him planning for a move to the 3-4...
but sticking with the 4-2-5 or a 4-3 for now.
He coached under Everett Withers for a few years at Louisville, and he runs a 4-3… so he has some experience in it.
Caban - January 11, 2012
At this point, everybody who wants to be a DC should be fully familiar with running a 3-4 and a 4-3.
Both are common enough that there’s no excuse not to know them – and no excuse to hire a guy who doesn’t. And if Dooley is going to hire a guy who’s going to take the Clawson multi-year route on defense, then he shouldn’t be surprised if Clawson-like consequences occur.
David Hooper - January 11, 2012
True
_trey_ - January 11, 2012
Heck Bama ran some 4-3 sets during the CFC game
phil g - January 11, 2012
Yes, some 4-3 sets...
but it’s not as much about Sunseri “knowing” both systems…sure he does. It’s a question of the UT personnel, and whether they better fit a 4-3 alignment (with those DL and LB responsibilities) or a 3-4 (with different things asked of the DL and LBs, different sizes and speeds needed, etc.) That’s not to say that you can’t mix it up SOMEWHAT, and it shouldn’t be a dealbreaker, because teams make the switch, but that first year can be pretty rough if your personnel don’t suit your base formation. Look at Grantham at Georgia…when they switched, it made for some problems, but things worked out pretty well this year. That’s because they defensive players they now have on the roster were (by and large) recruited to fit the 3-4.
13 Rings - January 11, 2012
If he is that dumb...
We won’t be worrying about it in a year’s time anyways, because it would clearly fail and we’d have already hired a new coaching staff.
I’m willing to let these guys do whatever they want to do just because it will either work next season, or we’ll only have to suffer through a single season of stupid.
Caban - January 11, 2012
Fair point
_trey_ - January 11, 2012
Depends on how soon Santos can play.
If he can step in and play inside this year, we have 4 good linebackers.
But yeah, then depth becomes the issue.
TennesseeTyrants - January 11, 2012
I love how already a portion of the fanbase has decided
That if this is a good hire, Hart did it. If it’s a bad hire, Dooley did it. Sigh. It’s going to be a long 8 months.
danmarcel - January 11, 2012
blasphemer
I can only hope these same fans still adore Hart in 5 years, that will be the most obvious sign things have worked out.
Caban - January 11, 2012
please please please
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
I fear many who have prematurely made up their minds on Dooley
will also lack the maturity to admit they were wrong. So not only does Dooley have to win enough games to keep his job in 2012, he also has to win enough games in 2012 to survive a potential down year without Bray, Rogers, and Hunter in 2013. It’s a bigger conversation for a different day, perhaps, but 8-4 or 9-3 might save him in 2012, but probably wouldn’t save him from 7-5 in 2013. He needs to win big for now and for later.
Will Shelton - January 11, 2012
See: Fulmer, 2007
Will Shelton - January 11, 2012
If we were to go 9-3ish next year...
then honestly, going 7-5 with a Brayless team in 2012 would be a pretty good achievement.
Honestly, Majors wouldn’t have ever made it to 1985 in this day and age… we’d probably be on our 10th head coach since Battle if the internet had existed back then.
Caban - January 11, 2012
but...
there is also the question of whether not not, we as fans, should be willing to accept 7 and 8 win seasons in so called “good years”
Caban - January 11, 2012
I don't know that this is purely an "age of the internet" phenomenon
Certainly there is less patience in general these days and I am sure it plays some role, but I think more of it has to do with Johnny having some things going for him that Dooley obviously doesn’t. He was already a Tennessee football legend before he ever coached a game. Plus he had won a national championship the year before he got here.
If Dooley had been a star player here and then he had gone on to win a national championship before coming here, I think you’d see quite a bit more patience from the fans. The major complaint most seem to have about him is that he hasn’t proven that he can do the job at this level (or at any level). That argument goes away entirely if Dooley had won a BCS championship in 2009.
Looking at it another way, if Peyton Manning were to retire, decide that he does want to go into coaching, go to a school in a BCS conference and win a national championship, then get offered and accept the job here, I think fans would be willing to put up with a few 5-win seasons before they started calling for his head. Dooley doesn’t have that luxury, nor does he deserve it at this point.
birdjam - January 11, 2012
This is true
See Neuheisel, Rick.
_trey_ - January 11, 2012
Perhaps age of the internet is a bit of an exaggeration...
but the age of ESPN may be more accurate. It’s the era of 24/7 coverage.
Back in the mid/late 1970s you might have 3 or 4 articles a week during the offseason about the football program. By the early 90s you’d have one or two dedicated beat writers working full time on just the football program year round.
Caban - January 11, 2012
But what I am saying is that's not the reason Vol fans aren't as patient with Dooley
Or at least not the main reason. Vol fans are accustomed to being one of the best teams in the country. Most of us have grown up with UT having a great football coach. Hiring an unproven guy is alien to us. Even Kiffin was met with skepticism at first, but fans warmed to him for a number of reasons, chief of which (I believe, at least,) was that he had us headed in the right direction. (It also didn’t hurt that he had a lot of proven guys on his staff, so evn if he didn’t have that experience he at least had it available as a resource.) Vol fans right now don’t know if that is the case with Dooley and we don’t have his past success somewhere else to comfort us.
birdjam - January 11, 2012
Don't disagree with any of this
Though the media environment is certainly radically different than it was even 6 or 7 years ago, and I think is an important part of the present impatience/perpetualfreakout in Voldom.
_trey_ - January 11, 2012
and this is why I'm souring on him a bit in the offseason
he did have some proven guys on his staff. not Kiffin’s staff, but he had some huge names (Charlie Baggett comes to mind), proven produces (Jim Chaney), rising stars (Justin Wilcox, Peter Sirmon). Now the guys who were giving us results are gone (and we haven’t hired proven replacements) and the guys who are still here are coming off mediocre years.
A month ago, there was mostly a staff to believe in. Probably needed a change or two on the offensive side, but the defensive guys were taking us places.
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
While I am as impatient as you............
I think Dooley will make the right hires and the only person on the staff that I have questioned up until this point has been Hiestand whether his fault or not the offensive line woes are a poor reflection on him. And sadly enough when the hire was made I felt like aside from Baggett it was the most proven hire, so I will give him a pass on that one. Additionally the apparent report on volquest is Hiestand was asked to look for another job and that is why the ND offer has apparently came up. I want to believe that Dooley is going to make the right hires again!
docrok - January 12, 2012
while the rumor was Shannon, I was onboard
when it changed to Steele/Sunseri/whatever, I wasn’t as convinced
Incipient_Senescence - January 12, 2012
I'll repeat myself...Mitch Browning please, perty please
phil g - January 12, 2012
Again, Mike Shula
10-2 in 2005, 6-6 regular season in 2006, fired.
Will Shelton - January 11, 2012
and rightfully so
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
Agreed
6-6 should never be good enough with a 12 game schedule and 4 cupcakes on the schedule. Far as I’m concerned with KY and Vandy on the schedule anything less than 4-4 in the SEC from here on out should be a fireable offense! I’m sorry but I don’t see TN as a mediocre team!
docrok - January 11, 2012
From 2012 and as long as Dooley is here
mediocrity will be totally on him. You have to give him a pass for the past two years but now he’s on the clock.
phil g - January 12, 2012
if we have another tumultuous offseason after an 8-4 or 9-3 2012
I’d argue that 7-5 shouldn’t save him in 2013. If we have a lot of grade/law issues and/or a lot of coaches jumping off, then it changes the game a bit. It’s changing my attitude towards 2012 to say the least
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
Changes
Changes occur all the time in a program, especially a successful one and this should not be an excuse for 7-5. Coaches will always re-hire coaches with similar philosophies unless there has been a trainwreck of a season and Dooley isn’t going to have that luxury until after he has had several successful seasons. And with this in mind there should not be any drastic changes in the program and if a coordinator or position coach leaves it will be just like the other teams; plug in the next guy and march on.
docrok - January 11, 2012
I think we agree
but I’m saying that if we do have a lot of turmoil a few years into a coach’s tenure, my on-field standards are raised. Early in a coach’s tenure, turmoil is to be expected and sometimes excuses poor performance. Later in a coach’s career, turmoil is a red flag and needs to be overcome with exemplary on the field performance.
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
Yes
Typically it appears we have similar views on things and I misunderstood your previous post. And I agree turmoil is not a good sign of program in good standing and should be reinforced with on field victories.
docrok - January 11, 2012
My problem with this
My problem with this is that will be his fourth full year recruiting and there will be no depth excuses to use and frankly 7-5 should not cut it at Tennessee. A down year for LSU and AL and FL until this year was 8-4 / 9-3. At that point it should be simply reloading. And frankly with Bray’s injury the only way he is picked to go first round and he leaves early is if he has a breakout year against the top competition in league. And I am not saying that doesnt happen. Matter of fact I think it will. But I also think by 2013 Worley will have mature enough that it should be a smooth enough transition to not have a 7-5 season. I am not an insane fan but 7-5 has never been good enough at TN, it was not for Fulmer and it certainly won’t be for Dooley.
docrok - January 11, 2012
I agree, there's no excuse for a big drop off in 2013
Regardless what happens to Hunter, Bray and Rodgers. A slight dip from 2012 might be understandable but a big drop off should not be tolerated and should not happen.
phil g - January 12, 2012
Since I'm sick as a dog...
I’m doing what I usually do to relieve boredom when I feel too bad to even play a video game… working on a spreadsheet!
Would anyone be interested in the series records and point differentials for USA soccer all time?
Caban - January 11, 2012
Sure, but let's talk about it on Brad's thread.
;-)
Chris Pendley - January 11, 2012
GOOD IDEA
Actually, doing this work I’m finding some interesting stuff.
The USA was actually quite good around the turn of the 19th/20th century, and only started turning bad after WW2… but really hit rock bottom in the early 1980s after a slow decline during the NASL era. What could the NASL have done to kill off any remaining interest in US soccer? Did they just mismanage it horribly?
Things got better in a hurry though starting ~1988… and obviously we know the story after that. It’s just astounding how much better we’ve gotten. Take El Salvador for example. We couldn’t even consistently keep it close against them prior to 1985, but we’re undefeated against them since then with a goal differential of close to 4-0.
Don’t even get me started on how badly Canada used to massacre us.
Caban - January 11, 2012
Craziest results I've seen...
The USA and Haiti faced off in a playoff during the WC 1978 qualifiers in Port au-Prince…
and proceeded to play to 4 scoreless draws in a row. They were unable to get a result after playing a full 90 every other day for over a week. I can’t find out what happened after that, but rather than ever getting a result they simply quit playing.
Caban - January 11, 2012
and on the sorta cool side...
The USA drew Jamaica, Guatemala, and Antigua & Barbuda into their WC 2014 qualification group. This will be the first time we’ve ever played Antigua & Barbuda.
Just for reference, their entire country has a population of 84,000… This is(generously) equivalent to the USA playing a starting 11 selected from the stands of the Tennessee/Wyoming football game from 2008.
Caban - January 11, 2012
and yet...
because it’s soccer, we could very easily end up in a 2-1 type game against them on the road. And we would have the equivalent of a soccer meltdown if we lost that somehow, despite it not being that crazy of a result.
Caban - January 11, 2012
That should be a relatively easy in.
Jamaica is the toughest match there (I think), but even so a Bradley-led team was able to handle them.
Chris Pendley - January 11, 2012
the semifinal round should almost always be relatively easy
and it’s probably tougher than last time around (our group was Cuba, T&T, and Guatemala), but still shouldn’t be bad at all
Incipient_Senescence - January 11, 2012
eh...
Trinidad & Tobago >>>> Antigua & Barbuda
Jamaica is better than Cuba, but the only way I see the group being tougher is in the possibility that nobody is likely to get upset by A&B so there would be less room for slipups. I think the field as a whole is easier this time.
Caban - January 12, 2012
you're doing it wrong
Jamaica > Trinidad and Tobago
I have no idea how Antigua & Barbuda compares to Cuba, but I’m pretty sure it doesn’t matter
Incipient_Senescence - January 12, 2012
They are about the same...
Cuba has been there before though, so they were a bit more likely to get a pelt in Havana than A&B is to sneak out a home result in wherever they play at(North Sound, A&B).
Caban - January 12, 2012
although apparently A&B...
just got a home win over Haiti, and a draw over Guadeloupe… neither of which are truly bad teams.
Teams that shouldn’t be able to keep up with any NA Zone team? Yes. Terrible teams? No.
Caban - January 12, 2012
although as far as quality of semi-final group
you can commonly just throw the last team out, unless you’re convinced that they’re actually a threat. Two advance, so the ones we’re really worried about is any team that has a legit shot of finishing top two. I’m actually fine with a stronger 4th place team (as long as they’re “snag a home result” strong and not “threaten to advance” strong), because they’re more likely to upset Jamaica or Guatemala than they are to upset the US
Incipient_Senescence - January 12, 2012
The NASL was a good and horrible idea.
Good: international stars playing in the US!
Bad: all the developmental eggs. When the thing went belly-up, that basically killed development for a while. MLS has helped a lot with development at the professional level, but I’d argue they’re almost too careful with international-quality US players.
Chris Pendley - January 11, 2012
US CONCACAF and defunct NA team record
link to spreadsheet
So… Much… Data… to… enter…
Caban - January 11, 2012
Well Palardy's accuracy was off on this
Something we’ve come to expect.
Ben Miller - January 11, 2012
Well played.
David Hooper - January 11, 2012
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